Making Space for Increased Empathy

The discussion centres around Austin-Smith:Lord's role and approach in the architecture, engineering, and construction (AEC) sector, emphasising their multidisciplinary, design-led practice and the use of 3D visualization. Graham Ross (CEO) highlights the fact that 3D visualisation is potentially the key to more empathetic design.  By enabling stakeholders, of all types, to be engaged early you unlock the opportunity for co-design. In doing so you inevitably introduce more empathy as the act forces one to listen to, and consider, the wants, needs and desires of all stakeholder audiences. The conversation also touches on the potential of data science and digital tools to inform design decisions, aiming for environmentally responsible and community-focused outcomes. Looking to the future, Graham’s vision involves leveraging 3D visualization and other technologies to enhance design processes and outcomes, emphasising empathy, creativity, and a collaborative approach to architecture.

https://www.amutri.com/

Transcript

Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Beyond Dimensions. My name is Adam Sutcliffe. I'm the chief product officer of Amutri. Today I'm joined by Graham Ross, who is an architect, urban designer, and planner and also the CEO of Austin Smith Lord, where he's worked for the past 25 years designing to create fantastic environments and enhance life. When he's not at Austin Smith Lord, he is an honorary professor at the University of Dundee, a lecturer, and design tutor. So I'm not going to ask him what he does in his spare time because he hasn't got any. Hello, Graham. Welcome.

Thanks for the nice introduction. It's a pleasure to be here. Brilliant. Now, could you start by telling us a little bit more about what Austin Smith Lord does and what you do there as well? Yes, as you say, I've been here 25 years, and it happens to be our 75th anniversary as a practice.

I'm only one of several generations of practitioners who have been fortunate to contribute to the creative collective here at Austin Smith Lord. We are a design-led practice. We are multidisciplinary and we really enjoy that multidisciplinary approach to working in collaboration.

So we have urban designers, architects, landscape architects, conservation architects, passive housing, sustainability architects, and interior designers as well. It's everything from city and place making through to the design of interior environments and everything in between.

Across those disciplines, we are involved in sectors ranging from urban regeneration, arts and culture, healthcare design, education design, workplace design, retrofit, involved in residential projects, transport, and industrial infrastructure projects, so a real wide variety of projects across the UK and beyond.

Wow. And so how, what's your headcount? It sounds like you must have a lot of people to do all of that. 

Yes, we're a team of approximately 50 colleagues across the UK. We've got studios currently in Bristol, Cardiff, Liverpool, and Glasgow. And we've got projects in all corners of the United Kingdom, and we've worked internationally in the past as well.

Wow. So with that incredible breadth and depth of work, and given that Beyond Dimensions is about talking about 3D visualization and how that is applied to the world of AEC. How does 3D visualization play out in the work that Austin Smith Lord does? Is it something you use?

Absolutely. If you take a step back and reflect on being a practitioner in the field of design, the tools at your disposal inform that design process, and that's always been the case. And of course, 3D visualization as it can now be delivered offers a wide and immense variety of creative opportunities for designers in terms of how that's used as a design tool, working in collaboration with others, trying to engage with stakeholders and the communities and the end users involved in these projects.

But, it's one of an array of tools that architects currently have at their disposal, but if you cast your mind back to the era of the renaissance and starting to consider perspectives and how to convey space in three dimensions, that has always been part and parcel of that visual dialogue that we've seen the impact architects and the designers of cities and environments have always had, and we now have, as we edge towards the middle of the 21st century, an even wider array of ways in which to visualize and conceive all new environments and consider the implications, the positive implications of those interventions with those with whom they're going to help realize and be part of that process going forward.

Are there a set that Austin Smith Lord uses day in and day out versus the slightly more wacky experiential type stuff? How does that play out? We've always been at the vanguard in terms of early adopters of a card.

So I was working initially in microstation and other tools back in the 1980s. And I think maybe even earlier with some early CAD software that's been part of our ethos. So we are now working principally in Revit, using BIM tool, using Twinmotion and other tools and techniques in-house, but also then working with specialists beyond the practice to then provide high quality visualizations, depending on what clients require and then depending on what the project demands on requires.

We've also invested in VR headsets, and we've had discussions with others about augmented reality, and we have been looking to develop our digital strategy to understand how we can better integrate visualization and 3D immersive environments as a design tool for ourselves and for our clients, and then also as a way to engage with communities and other end users who are involved in the design process.

That's really interesting. Which of those do you think could be the driver for it? Is it the co-design, co-creation piece that's driving the use of potentially VR and AR? Or is it more the stakeholder engagement thing? Because either of those, other reasons can drive be the primary driver, but is there one that really stands out for you as being that is the reason why you want to use it?

Well, if you consider right from the get-go on a project, project success oftentimes is founded on that client-architect relationship and a clear brief and a clear sense of constructive challenge and creative dialogue and clarity of purpose. And if you can do that and have intelligent commissioning that's then informed by early use of the right tools from the get-go, rather than it being an end in itself that's then used simply superficially to sell a project or to convey the dream, then I think that that's an exciting way in which it becomes embedded and integral to the design process, just as drawing by hand, just as visiting a site and analyzing the context, just as maybe building a 3D model was and can still be.

I think these are all part and parcel of that rich process. Of course, from the reactive side, clients and others oftentimes want to also understand how they can best convey and promote the ideas that are coming through a project, but I think they are best done when that is part of a more holistic process that involves that kind of 3D working in three dimensions because we are in the business of thinking and conceiving of space.

It's quite surprised to me when I spoke to some friends that are architects about the use of 3D because having, as I mentioned before we started this call, or this recording, that I taught Rhino at the bar and I assumed that everyone would, as you know, because architecture is inherently three dimensional, that everything would be done in 3D. And a lot of them say, well, no, actually what we do, we work in plans and elevations. Yes, we do all the design, all the thinking in that. And we only realize it in three dimensions, almost at the end where we want to show it off.

And that really surprised me. And it's really fascinating and motivating to hear you say all that, you know, your vision is actually to take it right to the start. So when you're even in that early stage of getting the brief, you're working, you're almost co-creating with the client to help them get an understanding of what it's going to be, then work together to formulate the brief to then deliver against.

Sure. I can think of a healthcare project that we are very significant and substantial healthcare project, a highly complex piece of work looking at internal adjacencies, critical adjacencies between certain departments. And it is the ultimate 3D jigsaw. And so developing something that responds to the very intricate adjacency diagrams that are required.

I do not doubt that AI and other tools will start to enable us to come up with some sort of an optimal three-dimensional response to that, probably in the not too distant future, but to be able to do that in conjunction with understanding the spatial implications of that and designing from the inside out and the outside in parallel, I think is fundamental.

Speaking also as an urban designer, we involved a lot in looking at essentially retrofitting urban environments, looking to undertake regeneration. And so a lot of work that we are involved in involves data capture, data analysis, and data visualization and being able to do that in the way that captures the essence of the attributes of a place and can then start to not only paint a picture of what you can see with your own eyes, but then maybe start to also elaborate on land use or and movement systems or urban infrastructure or land values, things that you can't necessarily see or that aren't tangible, but that you can start to then analyze and define in three dimensions and essentially layer up that visual 3D model with further dimensions of knowledge and information.

That's not only visually interesting and helps in terms of analytics, but also helps to convey a message to allow a wide array of stakeholders to then start to maybe diagnose what is and isn't working in their city or in their environment and that's scalable. You know, from an urban city environment down to maybe a more micro level at a street or an urban block or a building scale.

It's fascinating that that ties in with the conversation I actually had yesterday with Professor Fang who was using an Unreal Engine To display the carbon intensity of architectural design to explain to stakeholders why certain designs were realized in the way that they are, because simply put, a column has this much carbon impact versus an arch or a beam and then showing overlaying that on the actual design.

So you could almost get a heat map of good, good carbon design versus bad carbon design. And it's really interesting about that is almost the leapfrog of going from very basic. Let's just use 3d to make some pretty pictures that the developers used to sell a concept or someone uses to pitch to win a job to then going to the other extreme of going, right, we're going to take all this data that's not normally visualized and be able to display it visually, to, to inform or to guide or to manage that. That's quite amazing because surely with it, there's quite a few.

Blockers in terms of procedural or workflow or work practice. How do you, how do you overcome them? How do you go? Well, I should have said at the outset, whilst you gave me a very kind and fulsome introduction, my expertise in this field is not as deep as many of my colleagues.

So whilst I may be here as the CEO of the practice, there are colleagues of mine who know far more about the intricacies of these things. But one thing I will say is that certainly in the urban design and the kind of on a city scale, we've had some very interesting discussions with data scientists and with others about the age-old issue of getting open source data.

Data. Sometimes it's got commercial sensitivity or that has certain restrictions on it and getting that to a point where it can be shared for the common good, and it then becomes something that can inform decision making, inform policy, inform decisions. And I think that there are ways to anonymize and establish those data leaks.

Clearly, there also been initiatives and  the last 10 15 years to develop reliable three-dimensional models, digital twins, and whatever else to enable you to then start to assess the implications of certain planning decisions or certain projects being realized in certain locations. I think all of that needs to accelerate and be done in as open and democratic a way as possible because that to me is a resource that's not only a rich resource for practitioners, for those with ownership or a responsibility for the place, but for citizens more generally.

I mean, if we were, we should all be able to, and there are cities that are doing this well in terms of, providing open access information to citizens so they can in real-time understand how their city is performing in certain, by certain metrics, but equally policymakers and decision-makers can not only analyze that but then course correct, depending on how things are shaping up.

I think that provides a kind of dynamic way in which you can co-design places, co-design policy, and then adjust it as you go. But, that's maybe a bit idealistic and hopeful rather than the reality, which is oftentimes coming down to issues of copyright, issues of information that has our intellectual property rights and what have you, but it would be great if we could venture towards a kind of copy left rather than a copyright approach to a lot of this.

And so, maybe there is a way in which we can for that broader public good. Come up with a way in which you can do that in a way that architects, designers, but indeed the general public can then engage in these sorts of things in a more interactive way and maybe a more imaginative and creative way.

Do you think that will come from a regulatory? Pull rather than, so sort of a pull from the top down rather than push from the bottom up. Well, again, I can only speak as a citizen and kind of watch how in the last 10, 15 years, the Internet and then the advent of smartphone and social media has completely changed the paradigm in terms of the way in which we can, which we receive and consume information.

And that clearly has gone beyond local and national regulation. And so I do think that it is something that if it was done with that sense of civic-mindedness. That would, you know, and it was done with or for the people, you know, with an interest and a passion for a place, I think that would be the best outcome.

Who's best place to do that? I have no idea, but I can well imagine that it should involve the democratically elected, and responsible. People with a mandate, folk who've got the skills and expertise in the private sector, in academia, and in the, in the wider society, so it's such a kind of prospect, but that, to my mind, could then create that virtual space where we could test, develop, explore possibilities.

As well and use that in a way that then becomes something that is reliable, it's verifiable and could become then something that is used in planning decisions and regulation and consent as well. I think, I think we're on the cusp of that happening. Because for me, there's, there's sort of pressure from top, bottom, and the side, you know, the bottom is, you know, as consumers, as you said, we've got pretty powerful computers in our pockets.

We're used to seeing things in 3D, whether it's gaming or whatever. So there's that expectation of the services that we interact with, technology adopters, you've then got the side, the sort of the lowering of the bar of almost like the democratization of 3D with with things like what mutual is doing, which is like, you know, making it very simple to take a bin file and put it into a virtual space.

But realistically, but also with, with the various hardware platforms coming out and, and, and also just, you know, there's so many companies, not like Immutry, but they're doing things like BIM augmentation, augmented reality of BIM files on construction sites. So the, these things, all these tools are starting to come, come about and, and be easily accessible.

And then you've got, and then you've got sort of client expectation of, right. Okay. I, I, I, you know, I want to do good. And it's fascinating because that democratization of three DI 3D does allow for easier access and therefore much broader, much more open conversations with a far larger group of stakeholders than previously done.

So as a result, you're gonna get. Far more informed design, which is so therefore, hopefully, therefore better design. Yes, one would hope. I mean, it shouldn't be that, you know, what design should not be designed by committee. It still requires leadership. It still requires analytics, but it requires skill.

But it's like a collaborative approach. We were speaking earlier on about the need for empathy, for humility, for that kind of, you know, the cohesive working. But you're quite right. I mean, if we are and we've not really touched upon it. But, you know, if we're rightly driven to enhance life and environments by design, part of that is clearly about responding to You know, people, place, and planet in that climate dimension, looking at ways in which we are then trying to maybe work with those responsible for constructing or maintaining buildings to, you know, use three-dimensional visualization to consider build sequences that optimize. building approaches, reduce waste  clearly orientation and, you know, there's lots of software out there now, you know, looking to embodied carbon and looking at, the, you know, aspects, all facets of, you know, kind of the  biophilic design, and the rest that these are, this is exactly what we should be using technology for to face into that challenge.

So talking of which, going back to Austin Smith Lord, and you mentioned that you've got some VR headsets, you're considering AR and it's, what, what would you, what would you like to see? What would you like to introduce to Austin Smith Lord in, in the sort of coming years from a, from a, uh, a use of 3d visualization perspective?

Have you got a vision for what that would like? I think it would be. Premature for me to just kind of freestyle and improvise and have a go at what we think that may be because that's Absolutely a conversation that we're continuing to have internally, not to be kind of self-referential or to be to read the question, because I will try and answer it.

I think that there's a need for the architecture profession to understand. More generally, the ways in which the profession will and must and has to change in the next 5 10 years and rather than have change happen to the profession, we should try and get ahead of that by being proactive and see ways in which we can offer a different outcome.

Service a different approach to an integrated design provision for clients, for communities that draws upon the power of 3D visualization, you know, data science, and analytics and all the rest of it, not so that it's nice to have or something that's superficial, but something that's integral to providing a high-quality and positive impact in terms of.

So I mean, we've, we've been looking at AI, we've been looking at augmented reality, we've been looking at the VR headsets all in a way in which to provide a more effective and efficient way of working and make sure that the work we're doing fulfills our client expectations, but it also fulfilling for us as practitioners and do it in a way which maybe tries to free up some of the Um, legwork that we used to have to do that we can now delegate to AI or software so that we've got more time to listen, to learn, to actively listen, to actively engage with clients and with end users, take a brief, develop that brief, be creative and use 3D visualization, virtual reality headsets, and the rest to help to inform that process and have that intelligent commissioning that we were talking about earlier on.

I love that. I love that listening piece of, for me, that's the most important thing. The active listening, the time to be empathetic and consider what you've been hearing and be asked questions is the understand phase of your and my favorite design thinking, which is the most important thing.

And I've never really thought about the power of 3D visualization being something that actually does that, that opens up that space to be able to think and listen. I think it can. Every project starts with a conversation, an idea, a notion, and you then might start to sketch it out, but you may equally start to conceive of it in three dimensions in different ways.

And I'm not suggesting that we have done or tried this yet, but I do think that the profession more generally, and Austin Smith Lord specifically, need to think about ways in which our expertise and creativity can be best deployed and how that will be of most benefit to our clients, to our community and something that will inspire and engage us as well.

So we're in interesting times, and I think we've got to look at the positive possibilities that not only the static 3D visualization but those more immersive experiences using gaming technology. And goodness, I was referring earlier to starting off in a design studio where the most powerful computer would have been a pocket calculator.

Whereas now, we have talent coming through our schools and universities who are second nature to work in a three-dimensional environment from Minecraft and other gaming experiences, which is part of the design thinking and the design tools and the design language of that generation.

But we all live not in the virtual world, but in the actual real world. It's shaped in three dimensions. It's experienced in four and more dimensions. And so, using that augmented and virtual reality to then inform the best outcome in the real world as we're making that transition and making that leap is important so we can use 3D visualization to make sure that we give ourselves the best chance of making the right design decisions so we don't regret it when we build it.

Basically, yeah. And certainly, we can test it as well before we build it, make sure it actually works. Exactly, and there's the joy of the digital twin and that ability to because buildings, towns, cities are not static. They change over time. And that's the thing as well. We absolutely need to be aware of that with design is that they aren't static.

They now more so than ever, you know, environments are changing. I mean, if we look at London or if we look at Bradford, where I'm from, where I live now, the change in that urban landscape and the broader suburban landscape has been massive in 10 years, way more than the previous 30 years.

Well, yeah, exactly. A kind of hero of mine was the Scots polymath, Patrick Geddes, and he always talked about the integration of a place. All community and all of the activity, the work that occurred in an environment, but he also spoke about that, that a continual process of past, present, and possible and that continuum and recognizing that things are forever changing, and we often use that in our dialogue with local communities.

Because oftentimes when you speak to the woman or man on the street, there'll be a sense of things never change around here. But if you cast your mind back 5, 10, 15, 20 years, not for nostalgic reasons, but to understand that there is perpetual change and shifting change, and that therefore allows you also to be aware that when you're conceiving of a project in a certain context, that context is already undergoing change.

Oftentimes, particularly in urban environments, there'll be projects that are committed and coming forward. So understanding not how your building project fits within the here and now, but how it will fit within the other realms of projects that are committed and coming forward, that then becomes equally important.

But as you see, the other aspect of that is understanding the issues of a changing climate. So what's the impact in terms of floodwaters, challenges with respect to intense rainfall, more extreme weather events, and how to mitigate or adapt to urban environments in our buildings to attend to those particular issues as well.

So I think that. I have no doubt that in looking at design using 3D visualization tools and techniques and some bolt-ons that can enhance that, the analytics around that, you'll be into a realm of design that's looking to shape places in a far more informed and evidence-based way.

That nicely leads into the final question I ask everyone because I realize time's ticking on. But we've already answered it pretty much, which is, I always ask, how do you think the industry will look by 2030? What will have changed? And I think, you know, I'll let you answer because, but I think I know what you're going to say.

Oh, I'll tell you what the first thing I think you're going to say is I'll set you off is that the design of spaces is going to be much more informed because there's going to be so much more data that is more readily accessible, more readily presentable, and more readily usable to inform the design process.

And therefore the outputs are going to be far more considered, I would say is the number one thing. I think that there's many dimensions to this. Undertaking applying design thinking is the first and fundamental aspect here, which is applying that methodology, that ethos, to identifying and addressing and resolving problems oftentimes and using in collaboration with others is crucial and drawn upon the tools that are available to us, including the immense power of technology and the 3D visualization and other tools that you've been referring to today.

That should help liberate rather than overwhelm us because I think it was a data scientist who, when we were looking at data analytics at an urban level, was saying, don't leave the analysis of data to the data scientists because they will just continually and forever churn out more information and more data.

You need to apply that human sensibility to actually ask the right questions to then interrogate and analyze the data at hand. So data for data's sake or information for information's sake is missing the point because fundamentally what it comes back down to is humanity. It comes down to that human experience, comes down to the human spirit, the human soul.

So, all of what we should be trying to do should be looking to enhance life and environments by design. It's not designed for design's sake. It's designed with a purpose. And that purpose should be about respecting people, respecting place, respecting the planet, and doing it in a way that enriches our everyday life.

Enriches places that we live, that we work, that we learn, and that we love one another, meet one another, whatever it happens to be, and that's not just about the built environment, it's about the natural environment as well. And, I'd like to think that there's ways in which we can use these tools so that we've got a lighter imprint on the world going forward.

That we take our time, and because oftentimes these tools can be used to rush things along, but design takes time. And it takes consideration, and it takes reflection, and it takes empathy, as we were saying earlier in conversation. So that creative process, hopefully we can use these tools to enhance our creativity and to give ourselves more time to actually get better at being better designers for that human condition and that human experience.

Well, thank you very much for your time, Graham. That was an awesome conversation. I suspect we could, I think, as you said earlier, talk for a lot of, a lot of time, especially if it's beer enhanced. Yeah, if you thought that was lots of cod roll-up, then, you know, wait till there's a beer involved. Well, I, I look forward to that at some point.

I'll definitely give you a shout when I'm next up your way. Yeah, for sure. I'd maybe also get you on. I mean, feel free to come back at any time and have another conversation if there's something that you want to have a chat about.

Well, look, Adam, I don't know whether that was way the mark was absolute nonsense or, there was something of interest in there.

It was sufficiently high level that I didn't have to get into the intricacies of various bits of software that I'm not conversant in myself. But, hopefully, it gave some reflections on where this might go and where we might be able to use it as a practice.

Yeah. Definitely. Well, what I need to do is do a proper thank you so the guys can edit it and you can say, thanks very much. Goodbye. And then I'll stop the recording. Okay. Because we've just kind of started kind of talking about, you know, for doing the weekend. So, Graham, thank you very much for your time.

That was really insightful. I hope you've enjoyed as much as I have having the conversation.

No, absolutely, Adam. It's always a pleasure to have the opportunity to take a step back, reflect on what we're trying to do and we were trying to take things on a very much look forward to checking in with some of the other podcasts that you're doing, because it will be interesting to listen to learn and maybe in time, start to share some thoughts and ways in which we can take this forward as a wider profession.

I really hope that happens. Good luck. Thanks.