Running 3D + 2D in parallel

Dive into the fascinating world of 3D design and architecture with Adam Sutcliffe as he talks to Aly Naqvi, a visionary in the field. This episode of Beyond Dimensions explores the innovative ways 3D visualisation is transforming architectural and interior design. Discover how Aly's firm, Morpheme Studios, leverages cutting-edge technologies like Unreal Engine and AI to revolutionise client presentations, making complex designs understandable and engaging. A must-watch for anyone curious about the future of design and technology's role in creating immersive, client-centric experiences.

https://www.amutri.com/

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Aly Naqvi and Adam Sutcliffe - Ep4- Transcript

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Adam Sutcliffe, aly naqvi

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aly naqvi: That just make more comfortable like it's the natural thing. They're good.

Adam Sutcliffe: Whatever whereabouts are you?

aly naqvi: right I guess it doesn't work there. That's right.

Adam Sutcliffe: Up to you whatever works you.

aly naqvi: That's why. Yeah, and it was lighting that comes up that I was looking at that place. No problem. All right. We have ice here is a bit bit in core. So yeah. Anyway it started.

Adam Sutcliffe: It's a good size Studio.

aly naqvi: Clear, all right.

Adam Sutcliffe: Okay, but my phone off I've fallen father before.

Adam Sutcliffe: and you understand just

Adam Sutcliffe: I've got a cold we should.

Adam Sutcliffe: All right here. Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Beyond Dimensions. I'm Adam Sutcliffe the CPO of a mutri today. I'm joined by Ali naqvi who is the founder of morpheme Studios, which is an architectural interior design. Bim consultancy practice is also managing director of Alcoa pinion and a task force member for the skills of a sustain Learn for city of London Corporation. So Ali. Thank you very much for joining me.

aly naqvi: Thank you pleasure is mine.

Adam Sutcliffe: And thank you. could you let everyone know a little bit more about you and a little bit more about morpheme Studios?

aly naqvi: So it's a big long-term Journeys and I have already high-end ups and Curves in it. Let me just basically say it's an architecture in tier design practice. It's not just a very traditional practice when I graduated I feel like there is the Architects as one task and the engineers look at the tasks artists as the tasks and all this comes together and do a project. So I had an idea of rather than using a conventional methodology of using an architectural office. I try to incorporate the Studio's inside it so It's just a collaboration of multifaced Studios, whether it's the architecture it's interior with this space planning 3D modeling be modeling. They all comes together and gently together. So the concept of doing it is when you're in the first phase of the desire and pitching up to the clients, so you need to go through all the various.

aly naqvi: A stages of the design so you need to tell the clients what it would be when it's going to go into the procurement how methodology would in emphasize or impact on the certain projects? So that's how we've made it more like a Studios rather than a corporate strict architecture practice. So it started in 2011.

Adam Sutcliffe: Okay.

aly naqvi: When I and my partner founded the studios and since then we never looked back say so we are working in two continents. Yeah, we are predominably based in Asia and now in the Europe as well in the UK as well. So yeah, it's pretty much something a contemporary architectural design and theater design studio it is

Adam Sutcliffe: Thanks, and you guys have worked on quite a broad range of projects and I'm quite intrigued to find out how 3D visualization has been used in those projects whether that is, selling designing in stakeholder engagement building. how's the use of 3D visualization been apparent?

aly naqvi: so basically if in our Studios 3D runs parallel to the 2D as well, so we do not perceive something in a planner way and then we move into the 3D visualization. We perceive this space whether it's true the modeling whether to a physical

aly naqvi: Life size or a small scale model whether it could be any of the software. So we don't bound ourselves in a software world or in the physical world. We really like to move into that space and convince ourselves before convincing our client. So 3D comes from the start stage and could be in the form of Pinterest benchmarking and could be our own developed thing could be through masterpiece, like zaha these architecture or something like that The Fosters ones or could be our own memory Recreation. so the visualization create a very vital rule. So is how I take it is architect. we perceive plans but our client doesn't understand what the plan works They need to see it in a virtual reality before they can adapt it to the physical world. so 3D visualization comes on every of

00:05:00

aly naqvi: alongside our pitching

Adam Sutcliffe: That's really interesting. Yeah. how do you present 3D to your clients so that they understand what it is that they're getting involved in.

aly naqvi: So basically once our studio Works in a different way, we have a very one-to-one coordination and talk through our clients to all the difficulties all the understanding. We take interviews. We sit down with them. We work through their own mind rather than putting our head in it. so when we have to tell them what they are perceiving and we need to show them something.

aly naqvi: So then the 3D comes in so some Pops in a very first phase like I say one stage 0 conceptualization the 3D is there we tell them through different benchmarking different prototypes that This could be done your space. then when who were through their own space where we want to build it and we need to perceive it. All right client you want me to build a villa but your space is just for a cottage. So we need to tell them politely through our visuals through our understanding and the budget comes up. So what happened is we are very fine on our 3DS and then the stage 3 kicks in this schematic section and going towards the stage show. Then the client says my budget is this

aly naqvi: So we need to tell them they're all right. Now we have to make shifts to it make arrangement to our 3D and then it goes into their stage. And then the stage comes into the construction still then the client doesn't understand. So the client doesn't understand concrete the client doesn't understand steal letter saying so it's just envelope is empty it's naked and then we have to do the use visual mock-ups whether it's been a 3D on the physical form. Then the 3D comes in kicks in when it comes with a color coding which comes to the detailings. So yeah, it's just quite a process or two and throw process it goes round and round.

Adam Sutcliffe: and so that's really interesting. how are you rendering your 3D? Are you sort of exporting it from Revit and then putting in something else like 3D Studio Max or Maya how you rendering it?

aly naqvi: Just yeah. Yeah. So since as our project ranges, it's not just typical. So we do from a very classical project to a very contemporary parametric. So first was choosing the software is an important task. So maybe if a big scale project, we have a maneuverability to do something we take Direct on the rhino.

aly naqvi: Every bit the Bim in Integrations, sometimes it's only AutoCAD and AutoCAD 3D art you get some damage solid works. Sometimes we call the rivet. So the rivet plays a very vital role in stage two to three but that doesn't work out in supporting the client. So the client doesn't want to look at the Bim database. The client was to look at the visuals to buy it and we cannot just pitch our effort into the Bim database and the client doesn't buy it. So we keep it very focused. So we start up with more is cut kit softwares or more flexible software, even in some cases we do when the time is so short we do it in SketchUp.

aly naqvi: So it goes like that as well and then it's exported to Unreal Engine. It is exported to Lumia sometimes and we do the third party contracts as well say so we do the design and then Supply to our 3D renters to do the rendering so could be unreal and sometimes we are doing them parametric. So it goes through at least five softwares. So the skin is coming from the Grasshopper And rhinoculars and then the core and the shell is coming from the rivet and then Up comes some of the Intrigue parts coming from the SketchUp. Opportunities say you never know and…

Adam Sutcliffe: wow.

aly naqvi: then it's because the client doesn't understand how the things gonna happen and now for the last year or so, you got this table diffusion. And then it's a two and fro War of the EI versus war of our own ideas. it so the last project just mentioning you were doing putting up for a building in London. So we decided our way and then we put up the last renders to stable diffusion and we created and they tradition come back and the client like nutrition and then we have to do reverse engineer it so I cannot work in the real life, right? This is the visual.

aly naqvi: Then we decoded the AI and then we stimulated that into our zero zero one model. So that might going back to the Rhino again and then again taking so is this a feedback loop actually so it evolving is a developing processor and then Even if you get it through the 3D Max it get it to the Rhino, whatever unreal gloomy and Maya vray. There's a 3D. But you need to then again translate back. So what I say is the Unreal Engine about the unreligion for the specific. It's more close to what we can actually achieve. that's why if you ask me about the rendering. Yeah, I'm gonna say it.

00:10:00

Adam Sutcliffe: That's really interesting. Yeah, it's good to hear because that's the heart of what a mutri offers is based on, the latest version of unreal and the reason we've done that is because it's the one that provides the most realistic view of whatever's implicit essentially. So you've pretty much touched. It sounds like it's pretty much every piece of software that is available for 3D.

Adam Sutcliffe: is there what's? No, let me think about this. What is the

Adam Sutcliffe: What's the biggest barrier to you guys when it comes to the use of 3D and specifically when engaging clients? What's the greatest challenge?

aly naqvi: Yeah, the challenge that I face me face is so we were so much focused in space planning in architecture design tea specifying. What should come in what shouldn't come in and we take the 3D to the last moment. It's like the presentation thing so we have to do everything for example floor radiation from any of the council's recommendations. We need to put in real laws. We have to look at it every of the other things that light coming in or not. And what's the angle of this tea from the street level blocking the neighborhood or not. So there are a lot of policy things. We need to incorporate in our design. So it makes a design also our realistic thing rather than just the three days. We need to look at through the structures of it. All right, would it be buildable or not?

aly naqvi: Does it carry the certain database in it, which leads to which seats to the actual result at the end of the day which is a physical entity. Said so what happened is the 3D takes a lot of So moving from those things to the 3D presentation doing the 3D itself takes a Time be the rendering so you put in in front of the screen. It takes two hours for the vray to render it a high rise. I'm talking about. Let's say if you're five images so your computer's are stop. You're just sitting against the window and God forbid something you don't like it then another 15 minutes of loop for a one inch pixel, right and it goes on at the end of the day the client. Alright and you go to the meeting and the client says I like it, but I don't like the renders. Would you like to do it in couple of hours alright?

aly naqvi: It would take another week. So it's actually creates a barrier the clients then understand. All right, you guys maybe not professional though that architectural office give this quickly we want to do and then you come up and open up the can of worms in a way in not a bad way. But then again if we are unable to communicate to the client, it's something like that. Would you be able to tell our three years old how to take the oxygen rest going to the Moon?

aly naqvi: So the client in the other way is pun intended. But in the other way, the client is a toddler. All right, you can't tell him he's got the money.

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah.

aly naqvi: He's got the things he has moved to the world. That's all right, that's his task. You can't go to the dentist and tell them all right remove this too. You can't so what has to that's me. Unfortunately. We in the creative industry feels such a backlash. the client wants to dominate our boundary and then the problem comes in they want to dictate and two we take it very personal things very personal. then we need to teach them we need to advise them correctly and that's what our responsibility is and at the end of the day. Yes, these are the barriers so he's expectation is something else we are through this own mind reading we get something else, And so no, this is not what I'm thinking and you need to like And do a lot of things to it.

00:15:00

Adam Sutcliffe: So it sounds like the key barrier is actually.

aly naqvi: So yeah. probably

Adam Sutcliffe: the time it takes And the reasons it takes to create these 3D experiences. because of the amount of time it takes you you're limited to the number that you can do, but also your limited to the speed of which you can respond to the client. which is good for us because that's exactly what we does is it makes it instead of it taking hours. It takes minutes to render because we're not only do we fix the file but then we import it into unreal apply all the right materials the right texts and in the right way.

Adam Sutcliffe: if you could change them one thing about the way that 3D is for you the way it performs all your accessibility to it. What would you make easier?

aly naqvi: It's a tough question, but I would like you to do a snap so you put W concept and it just show you All right, next one. So it actually will help us limitize the time it's not just the 3D by the way, so it could be a 2d as well apparently and if you are able to just feed in through are religion or whatever this situation is the Quantum that comes in the quantum physics things like you do those Logics put the logic sin and if it's possible we can do it. The only thing I would always like to say about it. I've been using the AI tools like Dolly stable diffusion and the other as the architectural gun the only problem why I'm seeing is the database those AI have been trained in. Those examples from the market are the real right?

aly naqvi: they're not high demanding things. So if you do eration the 11th iteration with the same one is the first one. So that's the one thing the people these software like you guys you need to look at it. So that doesn't take you beyond this do take you to a step ahead but it doesn't take you on to the wow factor.

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah, so what are using AI to do you use sort of it showing it or uploading a 3D visualization of one of your Concepts and then asking it to Create the environment around it or what are you using the image generation AI to do.

aly naqvi: So we do a business like Baseline render without the function things like that. The Baseline ones the white lines and then we move it to the AI to see what our minds of thinking about and what actually could be possible. Let's say so we usually do it and this mostly did freeform modeling and things like you look at it. And quick for example, there's a client wants five option. Let's say what can be done.

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah.

aly naqvi: So we do one of our own and then we put it up on the software iterate it for us.

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah, it's interesting. That's what I find AI is particularly useful though when it comes to sort of Just been radical in ideation almost but it's really frustratingly bad at taking Direction because we were looking at it to see how we could bring in AI into the back end of unreal so that let's say the environment which You're Building sits you could create that say on the Fly and…

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: it's particularly bad actually doing that.

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: What he wants to do is change everything. So for me. It's going to be one of the next things to evolve is I suppose being a prompt or controller AI so you can say leave the building alone. just look at the environment look at the area in front of the building. you can touch that because at the moment it just goes free for

aly naqvi: I get so super my point with the EA. Is this the systems? Need to be on the learning part first rather than a half acre could so I think Quantum learning in next few years would bring in more detail to it more maturity to the AI still it would need a time plus cannot read the human intelligence and the end of the day. And if you need to we need to agree on that thing,…

Adam Sutcliffe: I agree.

aly naqvi: but yeah it is it is what it is.

Adam Sutcliffe: Have you experimented with with your clients? So once you've create these beautiful 3D experiences. Have you tried?

00:20:00

aly naqvi: Yeah. Yeah, we did it you go.

Adam Sutcliffe: because if we are

aly naqvi: We got a project in 2014, I guess 13 14. I don't remember the days. So there was a banking corporate group wanted to have a look at their rundown properties to do it. So we did the 3D visuals 360s and then we also like to try to Define it on the same thing you click it up and it changed. So this is what you're doing it. So in the early stage when you used to have two three software to stitch it to make a panorama. So it was more like a panorama and then we still did and put it up in the HTML app. So you can use it on the website. I hope people listening understand those.

aly naqvi: Old data terminologies. So yeah today. This is a very simple like you do it you click the render. I need a VR and then you put on the corners is there so yeah, yeah space plan especially for the space playing especially for the human early stage interaction when the client comes in sit down in your office and want to have a look at this space want to feel You need to do the VR. the market is the next thing. So you can like when you have a look at it walk through and…

Adam Sutcliffe: Let's go.

aly naqvi: and the next stage is they have to be able to do something with it as well. For example, if somebody comes into my office, I'm doing a big space. Let's say office and he says I want to see this wall color on green so there should be something right then. It's press it up it changes. So I'm also in a favor of looking something like that in the details as well.

Adam Sutcliffe: I think that's again a common theme is that when you get into immersive 3D You're…

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: because it is so much more emotive. it invites feedback or invites co-creation co-design and…

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: so you need to be able to facilitate that as he said on the Fly you want to be able to go around either, remove walls around them in or the positioning of them or change the materials or Change every element of it and I think again with unreal there is the ability to do that. I mean, it does take a little bit of coding and I think that's something that

Adam Sutcliffe: mutually, we've been thinking about and looking out for quite a while and just working out what when should we start focusing on that to deliver it and that leaves into the final question the question I ask everyone. and you've maybe already answered this but where do you see the industry going with regards to 3D visualization by 2030? What do you think will be common in 3D visualization within architecture in 2013?

aly naqvi: So I guess as the Advent of the modernity coming up in this computation world. It would be very easy. It would go very beyond for them holographic someone and even I think it's gonna go to a place when the client would just stand in front of his space put up with the glasses and he could really immerse it and go into the deep it would go decentralized. Everything would gonna go decentralize on the cloud. Less time be quick.

Adam Sutcliffe: Do you think? So I go I'm sorry.

aly naqvi: Sorry. Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I interrupted you flow go.

aly naqvi: Yes, so all I'm saying is it gonna go decentralized it gonna go more? Augmented as well it wanna go more flexible. iteration gonna go higher and the 3D gonna go very good. But all the bird is going to come up to the Architects. And then do you designers to then when you wait what what the client has gone through what your Mutual consent is to the actual form? That's all and I'm gonna just put up a very quick recent recent example of a product that comes up to us. So I'm gonna take the name of it because of the Indian things like that. So there's a concept store in Middle East. one of our brand marketer use the AI. Produce a very fancy lavish sort of interior for it.

aly naqvi: Free forms with every of that bitten nukes in it lighting exercise that the people are coming like wow and then came to us says the client liked it. You want you to reverse Engineers. are you for real? It's like…

00:25:00

Adam Sutcliffe:

aly naqvi: what if computer is produced it I said yeah it is without the concept of structures without the concept of how you're going to do it without even the understanding how big the leaves are how big the lights are. Right and it took and none of you have to do and I said, all right, let's work on it. And that small scale 20 square meter. Outlet We calculated the cost of design and build it was going Beyond a million.

aly naqvi: Include why it's like because of your AI. So my point is this that the time would come tough on Architects and the design and the later stage went from the stage four to six the Arabia stage four to six where it goes to the detailed design stages and the fabrication the construction then you're gonna start the hampering of it because the visualization would give you a dream. But you woke up Suddenly and…

Adam Sutcliffe: mmm

aly naqvi: you won't be able to be it. that's…

Adam Sutcliffe: that's really interesting.

aly naqvi: what the problem. I'm Gonna Come. so my two cents for the whole thing is this For the visual development you need to understand and take care of the Technology Way of the built environment as well. So for example, if let's say the Unreal Engine, your product is doing something and eight book terminal. All right. The basic feed of what are the technological development these days these World house? How steel Works how high can we go? what are the spans and things should be embedded in that?

aly naqvi: So the Unreal Engine the driver doesn't complement. It doesn't conflict in it. So we are 70% on the physical ground and the 31st is our dream. So we achieve the dream these days the 90% is a dream and 10% is the Earth. so that's what the problem comes in.

Adam Sutcliffe: of that's really interesting because That's only going to potentially gonna get worse if you make it easier to get to 3D visualizations, then people just go. I can just create this myself and what they'll lose.

Adam Sutcliffe: Is the appreciation for the thinking and the intelligence behind? the concept or the thoughts that…

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: then realize in 3D if you make it too easy, but I suppose.

Adam Sutcliffe: The head in the sky and…

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: and when you have got your feet on the ground and you're heading to the sky in a world where there's an expectation of 3D, if you've got something that makes it easy for you to come convert that realistic view into a fully rendered three-dimensional view, then it's gonna be better for you, right?

aly naqvi: And maybe it may be on the next stages. For example, the 3D model. Let's say comes up to Unreal Engine. That model several have transformed. It should be then converted into the point cloud or our reverted into the let's say rivet file or something like that. So the next stage of the feedback loop is with the Architects themselves of the interior designs, and there would be able to complement and comprehend the next stage. So that's also another problem. So it's from the vector to raster and the raster doesn't come back to the vector. I'm sorry about the technicality.

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah, right.

Adam Sutcliffe: That's interesting.

aly naqvi: So something like that.

Adam Sutcliffe: Boom, Thank you very very much for your time as a lovely lovely having a conversation with you and…

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I really look forward to seeing

Adam Sutcliffe: How do you guys continue to use the 3D…

aly naqvi: nothing

Adam Sutcliffe: but also hopefully it's going to become less problematic and…

aly naqvi: Yeah, yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: less frustrating to realize those 3D ambitions.

aly naqvi: Yeah, and thanks a lot for inviting me. I hope it's gonna kill a good understanding for the view as well to understand what's going on in the world of 3D design these days. Thank you.

Adam Sutcliffe: Brilliant, thank…

aly naqvi: Appreciate it.

Adam Sutcliffe: So, thank you everyone for watching. I've been Adam Sutcliffe, and you've been listening to Ali and please do and subscribe as always and if you'd like to join our mailing list pop over to a mutually.com and dropping your details, and I'll see you next time. Thanks a lot.

Adam Sutcliffe: All right still recording. Thanks Holly.

aly naqvi: no, no, she's

Adam Sutcliffe: we'll do when we're happy with where we've got to mutually I'll give you a shout because I think it might be really useful for you. Because it's…

00:30:00

aly naqvi: okay.

Adam Sutcliffe: because it's super fast to all those file formats you're talking about. We could drop into a mutually really easily and get straight into. three.

aly naqvi: very of that development curves right now.

Adam Sutcliffe: so the moment we're working on asset swapping so let's say let's eat an apartment block. What it'll do is obviously it fixes the model but then it also looks for assets that it needs to place that to replace the ones that you put in. So, let's see you haven't got very good models for Furniture or lighting or…

aly naqvi: All right.

Adam Sutcliffe: plants or whatever you can either drop in one of our models but our little references and the AI will automatically replace that with whatever but it also looked to see if anything you've got in the model isn't particularly good. It'll swap it out on the fly. So we're working on that. We're evolving the materials Library. So the way it works is that let's say you've got an fbx file.

Adam Sutcliffe: Let's say you've got an XBR fall and there's no materials on it whatsoever. You just happen to have named things wall window door. what happens is when you bring it in a mutual look at that and go. this is a wall. I need to render that with war material. This is a window that needs to be glass.

aly naqvi: thank you.

Adam Sutcliffe: This is a door that needs to be wood. So Paul does that on the fly, but if you put any material information In there any finishing information, it creates the materials and it creates the textures on the fly. So it does all of that. But the thing that we're working on at the moment is swapping out assets so that let's say for instance you don't put any dolphin you won't put any Door furniture on this door Furniture is never on a Bim file,…

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: right or…

aly naqvi: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: it puts all of that in automatically. So that's where we are at the moment, so we probably only about

Adam Sutcliffe: probably only about a month away from launching it but've got next week. We're going out funnily enough you talked about airport design next week. We're going up to Cranfield to work with them using a mutually to design for students doing the Masters in airport design, but the week after that we should be free.

aly naqvi: very good

Adam Sutcliffe: So I'll get some time in the diary now. I'll get Michael to jump on a call with you and show you what we can do. It'd be great to get your feedback.

aly naqvi: All good. Yeah, thank you.

Adam Sutcliffe: Because you've experienced some real pains in the ass, right?

aly naqvi: have you seen that special IO. spatial

Adam Sutcliffe: know How do you spell it?

aly naqvi: So what we did it spatial?

Adam Sutcliffe: s p a t i e l i l

aly naqvi: A l this is coming on the tablet, especially. Dot IO say back during the covid days.

Adam Sutcliffe: okay.

aly naqvi: So one of my friend he was a tattoo artist in a fire visual artist. We're sitting down in an office. No work. No. Nothing is all right. Let's do first woman nft exhibition. Just like that. He is a bit crazy. So is it all right do it as a no? No, you do it like you do it I said, all right, so He said all right. I just need the walls where I can put up my paintings. You design this space? I…

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah.

aly naqvi: all right, no problem with that. I can always design the space. and then why I did it so we were looking at the different decentralized to have immersive 3D so I went to this patio. So a lot of people are build their own library and things things. So, why did I designed up a space a keyboard.