Reviving The Old, Inspiring the New

Immerse yourself in a captivating episode of Beyond Dimensions with Adam Sutcliffe as he meets Natalie Sarabia-Johnston, a trailblazer in architecture and founder of Constructive Futures. This dialogue ventures into the transformative power of 3D visualisation in architecture, the revival of historic buildings, and the pivotal role of technology in modern design. Natalie's passion for sustainable restoration and her initiative to inspire future generations in construction shine through, offering invaluable insights for anyone fascinated by the intersection of tradition, innovation, and community in architectural practice.

https://www.amutri.com/

Transcript

Attendees: Adam Sutcliffe, Natalie Sarabia-Johnston

Adam Sutcliffe: Hello everyone. I'm Adam as you probably know today. I am joined by Natalie sort of Sorry start again. So Arabia.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Sarabia Johnston Sarabia Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: Sarabia-johnston, okay, so obviously Hello everyone. I'm Adam as you probably already know today. I am joined by Natalie Sarabia Johnston who is the founder and director of Southgate and Sarabia Architects as well as being the founder of constructive Futures, which is a very fascinating cic, which is looking to inspire hopefully what in five School leavers to get into architecture and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: You welcome.

Adam Sutcliffe: construction. Natalie. Thank you very much for being here today and speaking to me.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Thank you for inviting me. It's a great opportunity to share, some of my thoughts.

Adam Sutcliffe: I'm so on that point. Could you start by explaining what it is you do?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah, And so I'm an architect. I'm really passionate about the construction industry and architecture. I think, my favorite sort of buildings are refurbishment restoration of existing listed buildings? Give me an Old Mill and that's where I'm happiest. And yeah, I'll do the new build, the one off this book houses are a big, University Building or whatever, but I think my true passion is getting the existing buildings, and seeing that there might be stood empty for 2013 years and actually reimagining them, I'm bringing them back to life, and then that's causing regeneration and help them with regeneration in an area of which what's not to love about that.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: It's sustainable. It's helping it with the economy and everything. So yeah, that's the very much my passion so that's my dear job. And then as I said my bit on the side as well as being a tutor at least Beckett University and a part three professional examiner. I've also recently set up a cic company called construction Futures where we're basically working with schools colleges and universities to try and get one in five school leafers to go into construction industry. So I'm really passionate about that. And again, I think if everybody did a little bit then we will help with the skill shortage that we face. So they were working closely with the rics. And essentially we've got the biggest increase of people of the age of 60. Or they have as chartered members.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: And the biggest decrease of people under the age of 30, so we've got to do some about it. So, using technology use of how do we then create that bus around the construction industry and come into people actually that it's not a dirty industry, there's still that perception is people that they're on reality but it's, the Glamorous side of the industry, in terms of the network in the events and the do's and stuff. So, yeah, I think the construction industry is a great industry to work in

Adam Sutcliffe: Click on agree more. I mean, what is better than making? Beautiful environments that people live inside and they're inspired by and literally does affect lives now. I know that Southgate and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: up

Adam Sutcliffe: and Serbia are To put it mildly rabid users of 3D and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yes.

Adam Sutcliffe: so I just wondering if you could talk about what it is you use it for when you use it how you use it?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Absolutely. Yes,…

Adam Sutcliffe: That's what

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: so we made the decision my business partner Darren. he actually came from a background of archicabs. It was and it was like I obviously convinced him is we are Revit. No, my contacts were Revit users and office desk users and I think

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: For Rose it was about as a small business, to help us grow. You have to have that material to be able to go out and sell you where's with you've got your reputation. So obviously that's a positive but people want to see what you've done and I think by using sort of Revit so everything even from small extensions, we'll build everything in Revit, even the existing buildings. We build everything in traffic and then we use enskip as a plug-in to be able to then give us that real time sort of, the views we did one of my lockdown projects was actually this book it was formally in pounds house in Boston's bar, which actually you look on my LinkedIn you'll see lots of pictures of that but that was through covid times my lockdown project, through using ends.

00:05:00

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: could present the client the executable family could walk around the house and his wife was passionate about being outside and daylight and how he tracked the Sun so that was ideal and I think when you've got

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: our job is about communication. So, for me and Skip was the tool to be able to do that very cost-effectively. And again, we had one of the students who my previous practice. He came into work experience did his year out with us? And then when we set up South gets Robbie he then joined us in our Manchester office a guy called Elliot and he was just phenomenal. He had a really good artistic understanding so we could make things look real, he was passionate about that it wasn't just a 3D model actually was a piece of art and those are a lot of the images, I mean that's area of it's not quite even if you do a bit post-production for us to shop and stuff but I suppose that's become our style and then as we've got graduates

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: True, a lot of them are part one graduates who we train up and then there's the stuff that you see on the website is I think 99% and in-house, So again, it's given the students of tools that then when they go back to UNI, they've got the tools then to do the granted for whatever of Masters. So, yeah, we find it. I'm sure other people might disagree but for us that's the best thing that we find that a really good tool to use.

Adam Sutcliffe: Yes, thanks, though. It does surprise me that. when we were first researching Or investigating how a mutually be We approached a lot of Architects and we clearly spoke to the wrong ones because every single conversation I've had so far with arctics has been. yeah. We love 3D we try whereas before literally six months ago or even six for 12 months ago.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: There are most of conversational honor we know we stick to 2D we only ever used 3D to produce truly renders or renders rather. you…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: problem Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: there is no interaction and it all is weird because when you've got What I mean new builds for suppose lesser, but as you said a mill that you refurbishing when you've got something that is a fairly complex space to understand you need to really put someone into it or…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: allow them to explore it. as easily as readily as possible and so it's great to hear that that's pretty much exactly what you do.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: it is an I think for You we used that the 3D modeling as well. Some could do printed models. so if you can't do that from a 2d plan we do that with …

Adam Sutcliffe: even

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: the cashier, the VR chords and stuff. it's I think by having, just as a simple add-on as enscape it then gives you the opportunity to do all sorts of things and it's all about communication especially with public consultation when you're communicate with the planners Etc.

Adam Sutcliffe: no.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: You can really show you intent and I think that's when it comes into the Rock You've got to build the elevation. You've got to build the plans you're gonna build, tell so…

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: why not doing 3D model and then you've got all your schedule in that comes along with that as well and the efficiencies

Adam Sutcliffe: Have you gone so far as to design in 3D. So what mean is like, taking a client through and having them stick a virtual post it now on the wall and go you move this wall or have you taking it that far yet?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: he

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: We've done not I mean obviously, and my husband's big gamer and we've looked at Unreal Engine and you can literally put your 3D buildings in a space and you can put horses and stuff on the wall. We've not necessarily gone that far with the client. But what we have done is sat with them on a room, you can render that space in real time. So you can say about the light Timber floor in that direction? Let's have a look you click on it. Yeah, you've obviously got you pretty fine patterns looking online or…

Adam Sutcliffe: 

00:10:00

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: maybe we go for one or a slave talk something. So again, you can change the reception desk for the furniture. So, in an instant you literally click on the color and change the color of that walls was gonna be Sage call that …

Adam Sutcliffe: what?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: blue or whatever so it's in real time.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: I can see what that looks like. We actually did that with one of our clients. We were looking at standardized modular housing and it was a great tool to be it because what we wanted to show was that sort of the lifetime home so we could change it from Being like a standard house to then and…

Adam Sutcliffe: 

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: adapted houses. Someone had a disability or someone if they were sort of, even needing greater care. So they needed to lifting upstairs Etc. we then use that as a tool to be able to communicate that so they could then communicate that with their funders, so that came into it. So in that sort of environment

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah, CSU are lit you are doing code design co-creation in 3D the Monica and I think that's one of the reasons that we as in the military chose unreal as a platform was…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: not only because The rendering is superb and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: amazing.

Adam Sutcliffe: it's cloud-based. So there's no Legacy. You can get there straight away. But then also…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: because it has all these tools like the ability to just swap out materials, to amend things to draw in new assets as required to change the time of day to fly around to walk around to do all that and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I think that our challenge is making that engine accessible to everyone by because you can't just drop in Irving file. You can't just drop in a you…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: 3D Studio Maxwell or whatever it is you've got to so we've had to build this engine in front of that. That's all you,…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yes.

Adam Sutcliffe: all your geometry fixes the normals does the Pulls out any rubbish stuff that you've got in there a size materials on the Fly just to get set it up. but hopefully that makes it more accessible which then nicely leads me into the constructive Futures and how before we start recording you talking about, the sort of the Making School leavers aware of the fact that construction isn't, muddy boots,…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: that's like the money construction sites in the rain. there's a lot more fun. There's a lot more. opportunity and Variety in anything to do with construction and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Absolutely.

Adam Sutcliffe: how does And it obviously get the kids are today or what we're called digital Natalie's right? we've grown up with gaming.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: They've probably grown up with school. He was now grown up with 3D gaming. So how important is it bringing that into that piece to inspire them to get involved in construction.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: I think for me it's about the diversity, as an architect, I go into schools to talk. about architecture and being a woman in architecture or whatever, but I think it's to say that even if you did a degree in architecture, you could then go into game design or set design or product design or just that diversity and also, it's of my nephew. He's a graphic design and he worked alongside with us doing the graphics and the 3D for the Lord gone stuff. And I said did you ever consider going into construction industry was like no, that even as graphic designers are as accountants again, we still need them within the construction.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: So the gaming side and again my daughter what she's there Minecraft and…

Adam Sutcliffe: I don't know.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: intuitive Sims, and I said, what do you want to do? And I'd like to go into designs. You should be really good. I was like, I don't know why you don't learn in skip because then you could be doing this for real. And yeah, that's what they used to that's the language they speak.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: So again by using these tools to can see I get paid to do, you're playing a game and that's what I get paid to do though. a few meetings in between and whatever else but yeah, and I think we need to take heed, we talked about processes and understanding that Innovation and looking at it in terms of the future if you look at and how manufacturing and how much that's progressed. If you look at other sectors how much they progress.

00:15:00

Adam Sutcliffe: 

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: In reality, me my husband we both worked Atkins and he sat on the technology board and we were talking about Unreal Engine 20 odd years ago and that thing with we were saying then this is the technology. Okay, when we showed the boss you were walking around the good at the time, which obviously it's progressions that I thank God and I think that's what we need to do with showcase actually that

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: It is quite glamorous side of things. it's not just that you say it's yes, some that, if you're a groundwork and then yes, it's on site in the mud or whatever but all the professions in terms of surveying in terms of engineering Etc. every day is a learning day and it's new technologies and stuff and we need to and again in gaming a lot of investment has been put into gaming in terms of the software and everything else, again, you'll realize I was watching someone on YouTube and it's just so real, the water just it's like my God,…

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: how can that be and we're not there yet in architecture. We're still a big step behind and people like yourselves promoting that I'm pushing that and making that the norm that's what we need. we need to capture the kids who are really passionate about that because that they can make that happen. I'm too old. I've got the guys in the office to do that.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: the billion but we need the future generations to pick up on these skills and close up skill Gap

Adam Sutcliffe: result We need to prepare for it. We need to pay the way…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: because 15 year old phone or whatever now he's going to be used to fortnite which is unreal engine they're going to be used to interacting…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: but they're gonna be used to living in that space. They're going to be comfortable with other people, because I'm obviously, fortnite you build structures and you smashing down you shoot off them. They're gonna be like they're expectation is I was doing this as a kid. I definitely need this time 20 capability by the time I'm in practice or…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: So yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Absolutely.

Adam Sutcliffe: brothers. I'm gonna do it. So there's gonna be that and that if you're 16 That's what seven years away,…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: We've got seven years to go from where we are now meeting their expectations because if you did it because the industries that do me their expectations. they'll go towards those if there used to building in fortnite, but they got a university and discover I'm still just using Rhino and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: but yeah, yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: it takes bloody ages to render it whatever but they're gonna get turned off. So result,…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: we have a responsibility to meet their expectations now to a degree.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Absolutely, and I worked to the guy attacking's it was just phenomenal. He lived and breathed three days, he was way above the curve in terms of what he did and a lot of stuff this was even before we were using Revit and he used 3D Studio Max and it was actually not from the University which is the law business and designs that design skill and it's 3D curved building.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: And we work through the robotics engineer and he worked out mathematically. So he put it in a spreadsheet worked out this 3D curve mathematically. He then put that into Pro engineer which then popped out this 3D model which is how the hell did that happen. It's some sort of like which craft magic something. It was just like how the hell and then get put it into 3D Studio Max and it was phenomenal and for me that was the start of that it looks like that because that it wasn't ready. we did eventually render it but in terms of just the wire why a mesh of the 3D, it was

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: And stainless steel and tubes and meshing them and basically we worked out that I mean it was a 50 million pound building so you can imagine it was 22,000 meters square. So it was a huge building and every single panel was the same panel so did you…

Adam Sutcliffe: What?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: So that's what I'm talking about the piece of software in this Innovation. And this was So it's 19 years ago talking about this is what we were doing. and again every component was the same the brackets and everything and that allowed us to put the mesh on the stainless steel mesh and the amount of research and put in and what have you but again working for a big company like Atkins allowed to do that at the time so that's something that I've always been passionate about and I suppose

00:20:00

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: That's linked into what we're doing now itself gets Sarabia. We've also got a second business called South gets rugby Architects collaborative where we work with a professor called Gamal and he does a lot of the 3D Point Cloud survey stuff.

Adam Sutcliffe: One, okay.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: It is a lot of innovation technology around that and we're doing a virtual Museum and Visitor Center in hawara in Egypt. So again, what we're looking at is this on the scientists in the middle of the desert. there's a pyramid and so we worked in Nottingham Trent University. They were doing a lot of the research around it was infrared scanning of the area looking at that water table Etc. And we've then put this virtual Museum and Visitor Center and what we will do is all the artifacts are being.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Stolen from the site over the many thousands of years obviously in the London Museum, whatever what we do is take a digital twin of that and then that would be used to bring a collection of items albeit. They're best all around the world into one location which is obviously it's original from that could be through holographs. It could be through QR codes, share whatever yes, so I think that we're doing things but there's so much more to be doing, and I think as some like yourself who's But we're thinking or whatever. We need more of that to It's attract the young people going forward.

Adam Sutcliffe: You think just gotten just going back to Southgate and Sarabia, right? It's a conversation that I was having with.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yes.

Adam Sutcliffe: Fang from who's the associate Fosters about this wider Community engagement and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: up

Adam Sutcliffe: whether he's gamification to

Adam Sutcliffe: elicit public feedback and with regards the development of this community space and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I was asking him whether these VR or l or if they used either of them and he said that they tried VR but people didn't like it and I thought this is really insightful or the first reason was people thought they look silly wearing it fair enough, but the other thing was that people it becomes very insular, it's immersive and it's great if it's just but if you're doing something that's collaborative if you're doing something with other people you want to be able to and they're in the same room you want to be sense that they're there and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: still have that human interaction and have you guys tried anything with VR and AR whether that's Commercial practice all with constructive Futures and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah. Yes,…

Adam Sutcliffe: what worked and what didn't work?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: so it's more really the stuff that we've been doing with gamalan and again going back to the project in Hawaii. So we work with Nottingham Trent University and they've got a fully immersive studio. So again, you can stand in that space there could be 15 of you still in that space and you're fully immersed in that environment what we did we spent a week in Egypt…

Adam Sutcliffe: 

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: where we went to present the scheme for the ministry of Antiquities and the ministry of Tourism. Luckily. They spoke English that made a little bit easier for myself and Darren and what as part of that on this side. There's the pyramid and there was a labyrinth And the Labyrinth that was where Assassin's Creed was based on that Labyrinth.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: which is really impressive. So we model the whole of our proposed new Visitor Center and what happier and then the pyramid was modeled and then you'd go down into the king's Chambers and then you've got to go through his Myriad of you move this Stone and then you go up and then you go into this so it's convolutely weird to obviously protect and the King as it would be and he's deals whatever but also we had Immersive, the VR headsets you could actually walk through the Labyrinth. So you could imagine what it was like.

Adam Sutcliffe: Wow.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Back in the day and then you could go into the king's Chambers and obviously you've got the controls and you press it and then it steps you forward and then you can look up and then the storm moves across and you press then you continue on so that was brilliant, that I mean, obviously I don't take any credit for that. That was all that the amazing staff and The students and the researchers at Nottingham Trent University, but that was phenomenal. So for us to be able to Showcase that as a wide and master plan that was amazing. And yes, so absolutely. I think that is, something that, would love to be doing more of

00:25:00

Adam Sutcliffe: Have you tried because obviously, we're blessed of being up here in Yorkshire. We're blessed with a lot of Heritage stock, you…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yes.

Adam Sutcliffe: whether it's old farm houses or Old Mills or old warehouses or…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: whatever and for me. There's a real opportunity there to you to use air because it's like mixed reality. You've got the whole building fabric is still there slap on some and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yes.

Adam Sutcliffe: getting affordable. I mean the new magic leap glasses Love come out. I just, stunning the slim line. There's just great and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I can completely see a time where You just go on site you put those on and that's…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yes, yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: you pick your idea. And even in fact that even might be where you work because you've got people going. All right? Okay, let's move this and you can literally create and design the whole thing in the space.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yes. Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I'm related before it's built. Do you imagine that something do you share that beliefs? Do you think that's gonna happen?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: a hundred percent. I mean as I said when first what we did the intro my passion is sort of listed buildings and all Mills. I was fortunate enough to work on we was trying going Burnley and that started off as a 3D Point Cloud to take the medicine survey of everything. So again, even the listed building we've had not taken into the extent that you're talking about. but certainly that was again, it's to help the end users when we did decide that it was an old Victorian Mill

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Water tower engine house and we've injured and then again to be able to pull out all together because it was the University Technical College. There was a 14 to 18 year old provision. So we had to put spots all on there and it was a phenomenal building to be part of and a fantastic team I work with and then likewise I worked on and led the team for brightfield mill in Nelson, which was a half a million square foot where two listed Mills. So in again on LinkedIn just this week after 12 years in the making of just completed that…

Adam Sutcliffe: small one

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: which is again phenomenal and…

Adam Sutcliffe: Wow.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: again that was taken from a point cloud and we wouldn't have been able to

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Understand the site if we hadn't have had the 3D information. It was such a complex again Myriad of spaces and…

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: links and stuff and obviously I'm best in Leeds that's in Nelson. So it's there 85 miles back, and I spent best part of five or six years working, across in Nelson and Burnley and working on these projects. But again, I think this is where that sort of technology and people why would you use it's an existing building My Views 3D No, actually that's when it comes into it. So on that you can then visualize it and you look at the sections and you thinking how that the site was 45-degree Street running down the side of this

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: up this milk complex on the front elevation. It looks like a single story building but actually it goes down four or five stories. So yeah Street, and it's just the complexities of such projects only coming to the road when you've got the VR And stuff like that.

Adam Sutcliffe: How do you work with Point cloud data,…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: but

Adam Sutcliffe: if you've got that a million was half a million square feet. You…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: that's a massive data Cloud. But day Cloud if you scanned it all we've got geometry of all. So obviously that feels geometry produces 3D which is massive.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: So it's Cloud hosted or whatever but as an architect. What do you then do because How do you get the data out of that? To be useful in Revenue…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: to use

Adam Sutcliffe: how well at what point of the two combine or how does that workflow work?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah, so essentially on the project we did in Burnley, which is the first one we actually had a team in the office which painstakingly models the rabbit model from the point Cloud information. On the second one we commissioned.

00:30:00

Adam Sutcliffe: what wow

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: So the Surveying Company actually built the model from it. But all I can say it was the worst model that's ever been. the list of all sorts of which it was the same obvious. I was a capital when we did the Burnley project and then I was up.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Another practice when I did the Bride film milk project and it was the grand part one student when he was that Captain who then came and joined me when he was part two going into his part three,…

Adam Sutcliffe: He's not realize.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: so we'd worked on two very it was the same developer contractor which so, he was ideal because he's already gone through it but yeah, that it was the way that the windows parametric and the family and stuff the dog and it's cooked more into everything change. It was a nightmare. So again there's a lot of post-production and interventions to get it right and then it was looking up the biggest thing for it to make it look real when we did the renders and stuff is getting the materiality, it's the repetition on you…

Adam Sutcliffe: they're like

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: things like that way thinking. that looks really cheap and nasty. But if you have to invest a lot of time to think of materiality right as

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: South which we have to do?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: but yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yes, yes.

Adam Sutcliffe: And so really good having the structure looking right, but if you materials are out or you texted around or the wrong scale.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: ABS That's it. And again, it's that fine line of SketchUp is sketchy. So that's fine because it's sketchy and it's meant to be sketchy where then going into the realm of sort of the end skips things and what you don't want it to look is cartoony and…

Adam Sutcliffe: yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: that be a real turn off for client. So that's a big thing is getting the materiality right? Because that's what gives it that authenticity.

Adam Sutcliffe: So that's the interesting one. So I still teach design and I used to be the code director of the design program between Mary's and when I was talking to students And this is despite the fact that I used to teach Rhino, And I could far faster. Produce something rider that I could sketch it. Alright, despite this love of 3D.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I was like no. No, what you got to do is you've got to start with sketches and you've do better sketches and more detail sketches and then you do a sketch model and then you refine the sketch model and then eventually going to card and I think there's a multitude of reasons for that. One of them. Is that when you're working with a client If a client is presented something that is They understand this working progress and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: they go. All Okay, they don't expect everything to be there. They don't expect it to be finessed. But also, they feel they can add value to it. If you present something to a client that looks like the final thing that's fully rendered. If it doesn't go everything that they expect they'll just get annoyed because it's level and first of all you jump all these stages, but this is why I asked so given what you guys do. Giving you a love of 3D. how do you get over that sort of you're presenting something that's rendered. But you might still be in the early stages of design. How do you prepare the client for that? How do you sort of soothe them to so they understand that this isn't the final thing even…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: So a couple of things we quite often.

Adam Sutcliffe: though it looks quite fine.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: We've got a template which is a drawing style. So even it is a rabbit plan you put sort of sketchy sort of text, so it makes it look like it's sketchy and then red lines to say that these are not fix, So again, you wouldn't think about the construction drawing because again, you've got the crosshairs on your lines. So it's just you're lying set-ins how So we do that and…

Adam Sutcliffe: What about in 3D?

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: then we do a very similar sort of thing in terms of What we would do is simple white card models.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: So we put it into white card mode in enscape. So then you can show them some path of how that's going to affect it or whatever and then you've got no material assigned to it because if you just put it Revit door,…

Adam Sutcliffe: right

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: it's got a brown dolphin. it looks awful. It looks really awful. And whereas if it's a white card, then it's just like a building in cupboard. It's just you looking at them you're looking at…

Adam Sutcliffe: Yeah, right.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: where the windows are. So that's how we get off it. All the other thing we do is Use the white card modeling sketch over it and then everybody seduced by a nice and sketch. So again on our website, we've got some sketches quite often, those might have been just sketched over from them, do initial model and then you put the Finesse in with the stroke of event sort of thing.

00:35:00

Adam Sutcliffe: No, that's really interesting. maybe I need to produce a cardboard mode for a mute. I mean to be honest. I did actually say that to Michael the founder last week as well. I think we've probably, given the conversation that I've loved that we've just had and my thoughts about not making things look too beautiful too quickly as I think we do need some sort of cartoony,…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: stretchy version so that you've still got the power of 3D in terms of understanding the space But your mindset is this isn't the final thing.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I'm not gonna throw my toys out the problems the client. if everything's not there, so

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: So I think the white card and again, if you do an executable file out of enscape, you just click it so you can have it with it colors, but you can get me still get your white card model. It's got your blue sky on so it gives you that nice beautiful blue sky and it's in the context of Boston sparring leads or wherever it is.

Adam Sutcliffe: yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: It's real in terms of world context of it it's just how something in the middle of a white space and…

Adam Sutcliffe: 

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: yeah, we find that that works really well.

Adam Sutcliffe: to be 3D but anything

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: and I think that sort of the generation that coming through or whatever it. Because of the tech savvy you might have here. It's just that lack of communication and it's how we teach them to communicate. I think there's a lot of stuff. That we need it. I don't know. what's the

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: I think we need to look at Innovation and Technology. I think we need to make sure that we discussed earlier that specially the construction industry is set up to receive those Brilliant Minds who can help us look at innovation technology. Otherwise, we're not going to achieve that one in five School leaders because they're going to other Industries. So that's what we need to do to change people's perceptions of the industry and I think it's important that we all do our best that we all, support, with brexit and everything else and we've not got that supply chain and to support the growth in our industry. So we've got to change and if we keep on doing the same things

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: We're never going to change. So it's really that we change what we're doing and I think the biggest thing is to and I think this is starting to happen is we are knowledge that people are diverse and different and I think we need more people of color.

Adam Sutcliffe: be

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: We need people who are on the Spectrum you look at Elon muscular coverage of Brunson and people like that the world's Geniuses. They're actually on the Spectrum, because they think outside the box and…

Adam Sutcliffe: yeah.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: I think we need to provide environments to support people like that. So actually we can harness not everybody likes this but yes, some people do have those superpowers and actually put them in the right environment with the right coaching with the right opportunity. And actually those are going to be our future Generations. I think it's something like 20% to the workforce or on the Spectrum and I think it goes up to something like if you really need creative Industries.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: About 40% of people. I want this picture.

Adam Sutcliffe: at least

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: In the creative industry and I think it's 70% of Architects the dyslexic I'd probably agree with that. So I think we've got to design environments that allows us to work with someone who might be autistic might not be able to communicate or be the more social butterfly, but actually they think differently and we need to harness, people's individuality.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: To be able to support us to build better, environments going forward. So hope that's the biggest change, we can Embrace that and I think that that's getting better. I think people are recognizing it that's not a disability, but we're just different we're all different, and the world would be really boring with the same and I think by going in and working with different Community groups and stuff that allows you to understand their difficulties and they're nuances and what have you and that's why we need people from diverse backgrounds. We would developing cultures and environments that suit everybody because we are diverse.

00:40:00

Adam Sutcliffe: No, I totally agree. I think you just need to look at what Elon Musk has done whether you think Tesla's an amazing company or not. If you look at the way that he's completely changed the way that cars are built. by coming in with a different mindset with naivety and…

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: yes.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Yeah.

Adam Sutcliffe: I think only by embracing difference as you said do you get different ways of thinking therefore, different ways of working therefore some of it might go catastrophically wrong, but actually I'll tend towards a better way of working more inclusive Solutions as well as diverse thinking he's got these Solutions because you're gonna have a great degree of empathy because you've got a staff that think more broadly whether they themselves different. But anyway, Natalie, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolutely pleasure meeting you and chatting with you.

Adam Sutcliffe: I'm Adam the CPO of a mutri. Please do and subscribe and if you'd like to be on the mailing list and go to our website metra.com and sign up there. Thank you very much.

Natalie Sarabia-Johnston: Thank you.